Episode 139: Joseph Didn’t Fight Polygamy, Part One
Join Lindsay as she interviews historians John Dinger, Bryan Buchanan, and John Hatch about the “Joseph Fought Polygamy” arguments. This is part one of two.
Links mentioned in this podcast:
- Joseph Fought Polygamy doc
- Defending Joseph
- Pure Mormonism: Why I’m Abandoning Polygamy
- Corb Lund’s Brother Brigham, Brother Young song
- Nauvoo Expositor
- Nauvoo City Council meetings for June 8 & 10
- Joseph Smith’s letter to Newel K. Whitney, July 27, 1842
- Deed to Sarah Ann Whitney September 6, 1842
- Blessing to Sarah Ann Whitney March 23, 1843
- John C. Bennett’s 1842 expose History of the Saints
- Joseph Smith’s 1844 indictment for adultery and fornication
- The Lott family bible
- Testimony of John Scott in Nauvoo v. O.F. Bostwick
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Tags: Hyrum Smith, joseph smith, Joseph Smith fought polygamy, Joseph Smith wasn't a polygamist, plural marriage, Sarah Ann Whitney
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Comments (63)
Steven
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Bill Nye may not be the best example to use, for starters he does not have a degree in science, he is an actor.
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Mensch
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Wrong. Bill Nye has B.S. in mechanical engineering from Cornell. The “S” stands for “Science.”
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Jason
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Yes. It always bothers me when I hear this from people. Usually its from people opposing his message. If one of the main fields of study that designs and makes robots, satellites, space probes and rockets, along with all the instrumentation are not scientists, I don’t know what is.
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Steve
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I have a BS in finance and I know jack squat about science. How could you possibly equate that with an actual scientist?
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Stephen R Lowther
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Really? The answer is very simple: Bill Nye’s degree required studies in thermodynamics, physics, chemistry, and other science field. Yours didn’t.
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Stephen R Lowther
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Nye has a B.S. in mechanical engineering from Cornell. He also has six honorary doctorate degrees, including Ph.D.s in science from Goucher College and Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute.
He held various positions as an engineer between 1977 to 2009, such as contributing to the designs of 747 planes for Boeing and the designs of equipment used to clean up oil spills.
From 1999 to 2009, Nye worked with a team at the NASA and California Institute of Technology’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory to design and create the MarsDial, a sundial and camera calibrator attached to the Mars Exploration Rover.
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Marco
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Neither does Bill Gates, but I’d bet you’d listen to him.
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Steven
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I don’t listen to Bill Gates.
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Jordan
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Since when was a degree anything but your submission to pay for knowledge? Who cares if he has a degree or not, does he know science? Most people that have a degree don’t remember how to continue pushing themselves to gain more knowledge, and ALL of them could have gotten all the info they got, from the internet and their local library, for free.
College is for suckers who want to pay for a piece of paper, that they can then show their friends, all to gratify their pride. The most intelligent men in human history chose a different path.
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DB Cooper
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We can’t all be the most intelligent people. The most intelligent people are, by definition, the most intelligent. Most of us are average.
I don’t regret going to college. Sure, I could have learned all the same things on my own using the library, Internet, and academic periodicals. But I likely wouldn’t have done it. College creates an environment that pushes you to do more than you probably would do on your own. In college, you’re paying to be pushed, to listen directly from above average people, and to associate with other people who are learning. It is a good deal overall.
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Steven
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I Had a thought last night while I was reading that I thought was interesting and worth sharing.
In Mosiah 21:17 it says:
17 Now there was a great number of women, more than there was of men; therefore king Limhi commanded that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger; and this they did because of the greatness of their number that had been slain.
The first interesting thought is that despite having a great number more women than men, instead of ordering polygamy, Limhi order the people to be more charitable and help support the widows.
I also started thinking that this must have been pretty common among the Nephites with their constant state of war with the Lamanites. Perhaps not often to the same degree as Limhi’s people, but to some extent, I would think its very likely there was commonly more women than men in their society, yet not once did they try to take advantage of the LDS church’s supposed Jacob 2:30 loophole and practice polygamy. To me that strongly suggests that they knew of no such loophole and understood Jacob 2:30 differently.
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DB Cooper
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That’s assuming the Lamanites really existed. Another take on that passage was that Joseph Smith was against polygamy before he was in favor of it.
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Devin
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Steven,
Bill Nye has a bachelor’s of science in Mechanical Engineering from Cornell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Nye
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Benjamin Shaffer
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Mosiah 21:17 Does not say that polygamy was prohibited, it does not mention polygamy at all. You are implying something based on your preconceived notions. You are merely begging the question by assuming that the nephites were not practicing plural marriage, and that it is wrong. Also Jacob 2-3 does not prohibit polygamy, nor provide loopholes to that prohibition. In both cases you are reading it with confirmation bias assuming that it means what you want it to mean. This is a common mistake. It is the interpretation we take to the table that usually governs how we view the context, and leads us to our conclusions. It is very rarely that the context governs how we view the text and leads us to our conclusions. as George Bernard Shaw observed: “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says; he is always convinced that it says what he means.”
For context I recommend you read an article on the context on Jacob 2-3: https://gospelfullness.wordpress.com/2014/09/16/context-is-everything/
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Russell Anderson
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Here is another response to consider when reading Jacob 2-3
http://myfamilyconversation.blogspot.com/2015/06/entry-34-be-true-to-your-wife.html
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Steve
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You probably believe the church’s excuse for the Book of Abraham too, right Ben? We are tired of gaslighting by apologists like you. Bring it somewhere else. You have plenty of other forums to practice your intellectual dishonesty.
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Steven
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Ben, LDS D&C 132 contradicts the BoM on many things, here is one I wrote about.
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Russell Anderson
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Joseph Smith was sealed to men and women. They would consider them as marriages (at least for the women). But that doesn’t mean that they ever consummated them like normal marriages. There is a reason that we now know that Joseph only had children with Emma because of DNA testing, but we have all these reports that Joseph was a polygamist. The people didn’t understand sealings and neither did Brigham Young understand sealings after Joseph died. Brigham tells about asking Joseph in a dream to explain sealings to them because that was a question they had been struggling with. Joseph didn’t answer the question, but told Brigham to follow the Spirit.
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Steven
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It shows how they took care of the widows, and it was not polygamy.
Regarding Jacob chapters here are some pretty clear verse, I honestly believe Jacob 2:30 is clear, but people debate about it.
Jacob 1:15 And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.
Jacob 2:23 But the word of God burdens me because of your grosser crimes. For behold, thus saith the Lord: This people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son.
Jacob 2:24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
Jacob 2:27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
Jacob 3:5 Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate because of their filthiness and the cursing which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our father—that they should have save it were one wife, and concubines they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them.
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Shane Stone
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Benjamin, the problem with pointing out confirmation bias in someone else’s opinion is that it ignores the confirmation bias in your own opinion. It’s also a very arrogant way to begin a discussion.
In regards to Steven’s interpretation of Mos. 21:17, at no point in his comment does he say that it prohibits polygamy, so why are you setting up that straw man? I actually think his analysis raises a very interesting question. I’ve had the same question myself when financial support is used as a supporting argument for polygamy. Wouldn’t just providing the support without the corresponding expected sexual obligation of marriage be the charitable manner of supporting widows, especially if they didn’t want to remarry?
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DB Cooper
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Maybe I’m slow, but I listened to the episodes three times and I had a hard time following everything. I had a hard time telling from whom the quotes came, where they came from who the characters were, and how they fit into the store line. I had a hard time telling if we were talking about the 1830s, 1840s, 1860s, 1980s, or 2017. Everything was talked about in the present tense and the stories went back and forth in time without telling us when.
Who were the Prices? When did they live? How did they fit into things. Where did they live? Same with the Cochrans.
And Lindsay, for goodness sake. The plural of wife is wives, not wifes. The plural of life is lives, not lifes. Sorry to be critical, bit I’ve listened to every one of you podcasts, some of them multiple times so I really am a fan of your work. But please, wives is with a V, not an F.
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Go2
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John Dehlin just did a podcast with some “Snufferites” and they denied JS ever doing polygamy–they need these two episodes. Great podcasts!! Thanks!!
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Sorry, one last round for Brodies nominations…. – Main Street Plaza
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[…] Year of Polygamy, Episode 139, Dispelling the idea that Joseph Smith fought polygamy, by Lindsay Hansen Park with John Dinger, Bryan Buchanan, and John Hatch […]
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Time to vote for the 2018 Brodie Awards!!! – Main Street Plaza
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[…] Year of Polygamy, Episode 139, Dispelling the idea that Joseph Smith fought polygamy, by Lindsay Hansen Park with John Dinger, Bryan Buchanan, and John Hatch […]
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David
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Would be interesting if you had someone who understands the arguments in favor of Joseph Smith’s nonpolygamy on your program.
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Debbie
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thx I needed to know this
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Dallon J
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Can we get an interview from the other side? The Prices, Ronald Karren or someone knowledgeable in the subject instead of mocking and deriding people like the ones John Dehlin interviewed who are nowhere near being informed or experts? Extremely one sided and a very inaccurate depiction. You talk about those you disagree with like they’re crazy while ignoring and not reviewing any of the evidence presented by them.
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