Join Lindsay as she interviews Adrian Larsen about his involvement in the Remnant movement (Denver Snuffer) and how that movement views the principle of plural marriage.
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Links mentioned in this podcast:
- Adrian’s blog: www.totheremnant.com
- Paper on polygamy: Joseph Smith’s Monogamy:
- Denver Snuffer on Polygamy: Plural Marriage
Appreciated this podcast, found many similarities, however there is one piece I find missing in all of it, and that is the right for anyone who follows the pattern laid out by sons of Mosiah, to prophecy. I don’t hear it from Denver, the LDS church, or anyone at that. I had one experience with it which was powerful to me, but I have yet to find prophecy anywhere and am wondering if there is something I’m missing on the same topic you may have come across in any movement or group.
Jared, the ability and right of individuals to prophecy is sacred and inviolable. I think I can say this is the belief of us in this “movement”. I have many “scriptures” that were given me by the Lord, some of which I have shared with others, and which might well be received by others as “prophecy”, but that’s up to them. For me, things such as “Trust me, relax”, and “There will be enough” are prophecy. I can absolutely that they are “thus saith the Lord” quotes. They are words of comfort and promises based upon my faithfulness. Are they prophecy for someone else? As I suggested above – that depends upon the receipt by the hearer. Prophecy is far too often confused with authority. That is far too often a mistake. Prophecy is, in my mind, the word of the Lord. The things I mentioned above apply to everyone, but few will consider them binding prophecy for them. They are, ,as I said, words of promise, comfort, assurance – but they are likewise quite prophetic.
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Thank you for this episode. I have been interested in the Remnant movement for several years and I think this was a balanced and fair interview.
Please consider interviewing Samuel Louis Dael. But please read The Christian Foley first, now on Amazon.com. The awakening and remnant rising will soon get some serious shock. I can help you get in touch with Mr Dael.
I don’t believe in LDS D&C 132 but it states polygamy was to multiply aka to have children which is done by having sex.
D&C 132:63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to MULTIPLY and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.
I’m generally not a fan of FAIR but this is a good explanation of the Hebrew idioms black and white and how they do not refer to skin color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfzFS2mIcNk
If Snuffer isn’t a prophet, doesn’t want to be a prophet, how is Monsonites a viable comparable?
I would have loved to know his views on Heavenly Mother
Denver knows a lot more about HM than he has revealed. But one thing he has revealed is HM’s name.
Interestingly my husband and I in listening to this thought of a comparative visual of the difference between the lds church and the Church of the Lamb of God as taught in the Book of Mormon.
A cast vs a supportive soft shoe. Guess which is the lds church.
Lindsey -you did SUCH a good job with this. Such probing, thoughtful, intelligent questions. Such straightforwardness – no defensiveness, etc. I am so impressed.
You asked Adrian toward the end something to the effect of “how can this be done without any authoritative hierarchy”. Adrian acknowledged that this is a huge question and one that we all struggle with understanding. My personal attempt is published in the following blog post – if you’re interested…
https://scottstover.wordpress.com/2017/06/10/crime-punishment-and-forgiveness-in-zion/
You might be interested in some additional information about the temple fund. The effort to create this fund is being organized by three women. They felt directed by God. This was fully discussed at the St. George conference.
Every time Adrian says “the Lord requires …..” such as when he said the Lord requires a temple, what he really means is that Denver Snuffer said the Lord requires a temple. When he said the Lord requires a covenant, he means Snuffer said there should be a covenant. Adrian does not distinguish words from Denver Snuffer and the Lord. To Adrian, Denver’s words are the Lord’s word. Idolatry of Denver is as strong as it is for Monson in the LDS church.
When asked if people idolize Snuffer, Adrian didn’t exactly answer the question. Adrian said that Denver eschews the idea that he should be idolized, however the actions of the people that follow Denver demonstrate without doubt that people who follow Denver have simply replaced Monson with Snuffer.
As for Adrian’s response about the LGBT community, he didn’t give the whole story. You should have asked him if a LGBT person could hold priesthood, perform baptisms and be welcomed to participate in temple ceremonies. In other words, would someone from the LGBT community receive the same rights and opportunities as anyone else. The answer is, they wouldn’t.
John – Your charges of general idolatry of Snuffer in the movement, are baseless. Adrian made clear the need for individual verification of any purported revelation, by way of the Holy Ghost.
And yes he did respond to the question in regard to LGBTs, and did so in the most correct way imaginable: ALL are welcome to Come Unto Christ.
Mark, my comments about the idolatry in the Snuffer movement are spot on. You claim that people are following God because they get a confirmation that Denver’s words are the Lord’s words. However, the LDS make the same claim about their prophets, seers, and revelators. If the LDS make the same claim as you, what makes you any different than the idolatrous LDS cult who worships Monson et al?
The answer is that the Snuffer movement is nothing more than a fundamentalist LDS offshoot, and they would practice polygamy in a heartbeat if Denver said they were required to do it.
He who has ears to hear…
John,
You’re making some pretty broad, and false, assumptions about what I think and believe. You also do me the disservice of an implied hidden agenda by revealing what I “really mean.” I do not agree with the statements you have made about me, and I’m more qualified than you to know what I think, believe, and “really mean.”
As for the question about an LGBT person participating, I think you are quite mistaken there, as well, and basing your assertions on your assumptions.
Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and even entitled to express it as fact if you want. I’m only pointing out that it is still your opinion, and that it is based on conjecture.
Didn’t Denver once make the claim that when gay people get married in the temple, it will fulfill the prophecy about the desolation of abomination?
Do you think Denver was wrong when he made that claim?
Would you let a transgender person baptize you? Would you let a gay person take the lead in your temple ceremonies?
Denver made this claim in 2012: “When an abomination that renders sexual relations desolate (they don’t produce offspring) occurs in the holy place, you can know the promised destruction is soon at hand. Christ said those living in that day would live to see the end of the world. ”
Do you think Denver was wrong?
Let me ask you again, would an LGBT person be able to fully participate in all rites and ordinances, both being able to perform them and receive them?
Lastly, you totally avoided the question about idolatry. The idolatry is evidenced by how people treat Denver. The even referred to him as “The Servant,” and other pseudonyms in your conference in St. George. That sounds idolatrous to me.
What Denver teaches conforms with scripture. If you have a problem with something that he teaches then you likely have a problem with what the scriptures teach.
There’s a reason why Adrian hasn’t answered the questions I asked above. He would either have to admit that Denver was wrong, or he would have to admit that LGBT people do not have the same rights and privileges as straight people in their movement.
Mark’s comment perfectly illustrates how they see Denver. They see him as speaking for God. Like the LDS who see articles in the Ensign as modern revelations, Snufferites see all of Denver’s words as scripture.
Thanks, Lindsay and Adrian, for a fascinating, thought-provoking conversation. I would add my compliments to those of Scott, Lindsay, for your knack of exploring highly-charged topics with grace and mutual respect. In your eternal quest for engaging folks to be a part of Sunstone Symposium, you might stay in touch with this one.
Idolatry for our favorite fellow folks is a near-universal character flaw of the human family. Your point about Adrian believing Denver’s words are the Lord’s words is well taken, John. For actual messengers from God, however, that is exactly how it happens. They say and do what God instructs them to say and do, regardless of how odd or unpleasant the message. For those who believe in God revealing truth to human beings, the words of Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, most of the writers of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, hold profound value because they claim to have received them from God.
Who are we to insist that God couldn’t speak through the likes of Denver Snuffer if he wanted to? But an attorney? An excommunicated member of an LDS stake high council? A guy who rides a Harley? What kind of twisted sense of humor would it require for God to call someone like that? You’ve got me there. It brings to mind Isaiah 55:8–9 which suggests an infinite number of possibilities:
8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
To me, the more interesting question beyond your suspicion that Adrian is idolizing Denver is, “What if God actually is vouching for, speaking through and relaunching his work anew through Denver Snuffer? What if, as an actual, authorized conduit for light and truth, Snuffer is bypassing the ignorance, the lifeless, entrenched misunderstanding of our ancestors and the spiritual rebellion that manifests in our world today?
Even if you don’t believe in Snuffer, his teachings might invite you to keep an eye out for his fruits. What if something were to come from of all this talk of new scripture, a new covenant and a temple? In the parable of the talents, the lord was happy to accept the labor of- and reward those who came in at the last moment. If Snuffer is the real deal and you were to change your mind at some point in the future, the Lord would probably accept your loyalty with open arms.
Why would the Son of God be born to woman that conceived out of wedlock? How could a Holy being be born into what appears to be sin? God does work in ways we don’t expect. The scriptures confirm the things Adrian and Denver say as far as what he requires. It is not idolatry to listen to the words of a true prophet. God does work through prophets. It is the message has born fruit for me. it is idolatry to not confirm the message with God.
[…] – Scott Hales” LDS Perspectives: “The Divine Council – Stephen Smoot” Year of Polygamy: “Update on Short Creek” Year of Polygamy: “Denver Snuffer, The Remnant Movement, and Polygamy” Gospel Tangents: […]
Very good podcast. I had often heard the name but really had no idea what Denver Snuffer was all about. Thanks!
[…] a recent Year of Polygamy podcast, Lindsay Hansen Park interviewed Adrian Larsen (see the full transcript here: 2017-07-12: Adrian […]
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