I’ve heard a few of these podcasts but for the most part I know of you for your continued contribution on the Mormon Matters podcasts. I always love your input there and always find myself nodding emphatically along to your comments. I appreciate that you don’t seem to sugar coat things as much as some of the others, which is really refreshing for me.
I wanted to ask you a couple of things: 1) was it your FB post that I saw John Dehlin share where there was a service project and/or opportunity to help the FLDS in “Tent City”? I would like to contribute some funding if you know how I can do that.
Secondly, in your research, to what extent do those living or having had lived polygamy have threesomes (or more I guess)? Is it common? Non-existent? Was it allowed? Expressly prohibited? I know it sounds like a crude question, but I really feel the answer speaks to the supposed origin/authenticity of the revelation of polygamy or if it truly was made-up by man. Whatever you can share is appreciated.
On year of polygamy pod cast on 1890 manifesto and something about Mormon writers response the numbers in the late 50’s. Error 404 comes up. I’m enjoying your cast and thank you so much for a fine job. I’m a friend of Ogden Kraut who died back in 2002. I think he would of loved your show. His wife is Anne Wilde whom I believe you have talked to. I love your guest and research. Very fair and even handed. It has given me a well rounded perspective. Your awesome. Keep it up. I have had the opportunity to do deep research myself back in the late 90’s when I was going to BYU. May you and your family have peace and joy. Charlie Pemberton
Lindsay,
I want to present an unconventional theological argument about how eternal relationships might work.
First, I want to say that I am heterosexual, monogamous, active LDS. I acknowledge that polygamy has been discriminatory devastating and often fundamentally unfair to women and that it is very disturbing and repulsive to many people today. If women are property and second class citizens in the eternities subjected to husbands, the practice seems ungodly and harmful.
That said, let me have us imagine eternity and that relationships can continue into the eternities. Now many of us have loved more than one person during our lives. We can and do choose and can be monogamous with our chosen partner. Some of us are confident that we have found our eternal monogamous heterosexual partner and that we will be happy with them for all eternity and that is great.
Yet some of us have a spouse who dies and we fall in love again and then if our relationships can continue in the eternities how would we choose which to stay connected to and which would we give up if we were wanting to stay eternally monogamous? What pain for the second spouse who is not chosen and what happens to the not chosen spouse? If relationships continue then things are messy. Lets say a man marries two women in life and both women in the eternities are ok with being in a plural eternal relationship? So who are we as monogamous believers to tell them that they can’t organize their eternal relationships to how they choose to do so with their agency. What right do we have to tell them because we believe in monogamy that others have to live eternally only with one partner and stay with that heterosexual partner forever to satisfy our sense of moral correctness?
Now when we realize that the LDS Church has changed its policy and now allows woman to be sealed to another man after the death of a spouse. So if the option to have more than one spouse eternally is not limited only to men but is also open to women, then it may mean that women are not eternally second class citizens eternally.
Now implicit in eternal relationships is agency, that all people consent.
If we add based on D&C 132:66 that God will reveal more about the law in the future, that same sex marriage should be approved and polyandry allowed eternally, then we can allow people to choose who they want to live eternally with without being sanctioned by others.
Netwok relationships would exist with a man married to more than one woman who are married in turn to more than one men and or women. We seem to manage blended families and blended parenting so why could it not be manageable in the eternities?
Imagine thou not having the ability to enter into and leave relationships in the eternities? Well not so good. So we need to add the ability to enter into and change and exit relationships in the eternities.
So for me the genesis of polygamy may actually be a way that we can provide agency and fairness to eternal relationships. If relationships can be eternal then, to me I need to be accepting of other’s choices and it to be all ok.
I’m trying to listen to them in order, but the link for Episode 91 actually takes you back to episode 82. It makes me sad. Can that be fixed please? It does it both on the FMH site and Year of Polygamy site. Thanks!
In attempting to listen to the podcast on the AUB, I have noted a couple of times now that the podcast restarts early in the program, at approximately the point where BH Roberts and Reed Smoot are being discussed. I had hoped that waiting a week or so would give the problem time to work through bu so far, no luck. Thanks!
I recently ordered and read Ms. Pearson’s book. As someone who is the descendant of poligamists, I’ve got “plural marriage” coming at me a dozen different directions. Like most women, I don’t like it at all. Because of poligamy I had no interest in my great-great-grandfathers because I didn’t like how my great-great-grandmothers and their children were treated. For example, my great-grandmother wanted to go to college, but because another half sister her age didn’t want to go to college, they opted not to send her. Where’s the sense in that?
Also, I have a great-great-grandfather who married my great-great-grandmother when she was barely 14 – or younger. I realize at the time, it was common for girls to marry as soon as they entered puberty, but she was just a few months older than some of my great-great-grandfather’s children. She was an orphan and I realize she really needed help, but should he have adopted her instead. He also married two of his nieces – his brother’s daughters. How desperate were those girls to get married. This was all at the behest of Brigham Young. What was he thinking?????????????????????? Wasn’t this incest.
In another case Young encouraged another great-great-grandmother to marry a man he had specifically asked to marry her. The marriage barely lasted a year. Where was the inspiration there??????
Another great-great grandfather married a second wife after his first wife, my great-great-grandmother had died. He later deserted her for a 16-year old and basically turned the other wife into the “farmer” where she supported both families. He was the bishop at the time during all this.
There were so many injustices and massive hurts along the way. It’s still not fair nor is it right. Women aren’t chattel nor are they property. They should be allowed to be sealed to more than one man. A female friend of mine has been sealed to both her husbands the second of which she was married to longer than the first guy and who she also had children with. A widowed or divorced woman shouldn’t be considered less than because she’s been sealed to another man. The whole thing proves such a gigantic mess that, it’s true, only God can straighten it out. I think it all boils down to giving women equal opportunities in marriage and allowing them to be sealed to more than one man.
Have you seen this show? I just listened to your “year of polygamy” podcast on Mormon Stories. Some girls that escaped the Kingston group have been helping other women escape and are doing a show to bring the issues to light. Maybe y’all could connect and combine forces?
Episodes 59 and 60 link Error 404 pages. Can you please get this fixed? I’ve been listening in order, and these two missing episodes are on extremely interesting topics. I don’t want to miss them!
These cults have a couple of thousand Jaycee Lee Dugards in the custody of hundreds of Phillip Garridos with no Rebecca Baileys to clean up the mess. The only difference between these girls and Jaycee is they were born into captivity not kidnapped into it. They did not chose that life any more than she did. Their brainwashed parents, at one time victims themselves are coconspirators In their abuse and exploitation. Keep in mind that they have been kept isolated all their lives and don’t have fantast idea what’s going on in the real world. Like Jaycee they have been fed a steady diet of highly deceptive and manipulative misinformation. Much of it unrealistic unsupported ultra extreme religious rhetoric and threats. Just to name a few they believe Warren Jeffs is the president of the united states and is going to get out of jail tomorrow. They don’t believe inbreeding is real. They don’t believe man ever stepped foot on the moon and NASA doesn’t exists. They have intentionally introduced phobias, fear and shun outsiders, the internet and every other form electronic or printed communication. With no alternative point of view they can be told just about anything and they will believe it. They are unlikely to ask for help.
SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard
Unlike Jaycee when they escape polygamy they lose their family not get them back. They do not get a penny from the state and are totally on their own to sink or swim. They all have issues, face seemingly insurmountable challenges and are in need of counseling. These Escapes are not always successful. Sometimes the dragon wins. Some girls make repeated unsuccessful escape attempts. Some file for emancipation and are denied. Some take their own lives. Some who have access to information about tax fraud , welfare fraud, money laundering and hidden assets try to take down the organization from inside, by supplying it to the government. Some run away and are returned to the cult, which has custodial rights yielded to them by their parents. This effectively makes them the property of the cult. They all suffer in silence and fear.
There are two main groups the FLDS(Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints) headed by The Profit Warren Jeffs(serving life +20), in the south and a splinter group called The Kingston Group or The Order headed by The Profit Paul Kingston(under investigation), around Salt Lake city. These two should share a cell with Philip and Charlie. I wonder how they would get along. Both groups are the subject of a variety of federal and a few state investigations for many violations and have many members in jail or on the run. Despite that most of what they do goes uninvestigated. There are also many civil suits pending against them as well. You would be amazed at what goes on in these groups. Both groups tell their members that gods law is above man’s law so they above the law. They are descended directly from god and there for superior to mere mortals like us(gentiles). Many people view these groups as organized crime syndicates not churches. Paul Kingston being called the John Gotti of religion. You will have to decide for yourself what they are.
The children are exploited in every way that children can be exploited, sexily, fanatically, genetically, nutritionally, educationally and neglected. They face a life of malnutrition and food shortages, due to the size of their family. They receive absolutely no support from the father, who has a dozen or so wives and a dozen or so kids buy each one. At age 8-13 they are sent to lying school to be taught to shun or lie to everyone outside the cult especially non cult police, social workers and welfare workers. At 12 to 13 the girls plan their wedding to an assigned husband, usually an uncle 30 years there senior or a cousin who may already have multiple wives. If they resist they are sometimes beaten by their own father. They may be reassigned at a later date. All cult members are already 5th or 6th generation inbred. Stillbirths and horrible birth defects not uncommon and becoming more common with each generation. Many of the babies have very short lives. If they live to see their first birthday their falsified birth certificates are filed(in Angel and Starlet’s case none where filed). At a minimum the father’s name is ether blank or factious. If the mother was underage her name and/or the birth date might be as well. Unlawfully falsified to protect the cult and the parents from charges of truancy, child labor law violations, incest, polygamy, rape, statutory rape and lack of child support. By 15 or sometimes earlier they are out of school and are working long hours at subminimum wages or script if they are paid at all. Many girls have been repeatedly molested buy their husbands to be. Viewed as breading stock, by 16 or maybe sooner they are celestial or spiritual(not legally married) wives, pregnant, working for a cult owned business and are expected have a child every year from then on. This is how the Mormon church and the cults built their numbers into what they are today. They claim to double in size every year and expect to take over North America. With their incredible birth rate they might do just that.
I don’t know what these girls did to deserve to be born into a polygamist cult. Maybe they’re not righteous enough to be endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights. They certainly do not have Liberty, may not refuse sex, may not communicate outside the cult, may not own anything and they do not have freedom of speech. They are not free. The police in short crick will not help these girls. The police are members of the cult and totally corrupt. If Jaycee had been born in to one of these cults she would still be behind walls destitute, without hope of rescue and her daughters would face the same. No one in the cult is allowed to communicate with the outside world, no TV, newspaper, internet, books magazines, etcetera. Of course there are lots of walls and fences. Walls, cameras and the god squad(vigilantes) are every ware to make sure there is no communication with the outside world. They are kept totally isolated. If they had knowledge of the outside world they might be tempted to make decisions in their own best interest. Heaven forbid such a thing.
While the high ranking members, the Philip Garados of the church(cult) get fresh cute young naive wives every year or so. There aren’t enough left for the lower ranking men. The surplus boys are apostatized(banished), destitute, uneducated, sometimes illiterate, shun by family and friend alike, warned never to step foot on church(cult) property again or else. Exceptions are made if they can buy their way back in($5,000 or so) or bring a fresh wife in from outside the cult. A least until they get kicked out again and their wife reassigned to a high ranking member. The high ranking elite members live a luxurious life style with all the sex, money and power that their hart could desire while the lower ranking members go hungry, especially the children.
SEE: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger
Reform looks unlikely. Without outside intervention I don’t see it happening. 62.2 percent about two thirds of population and two thirds of the electorate of Utah is Mormon. Which means The Mormon church, which operates behind closed doors is the government without any form of checks and balances. The equivalent of one party rule. The Mormon church receives 10% of the memberships income, about $7 billion a year. Plus interest on previous years income. No elected official can attain or stay in office without at least their tacit approval. Although the Mormon church under duress renounced, at least publicly polygamy in 1890 it uses and has used the same tactics to grow into what it is today. They are not going to give up even a small portion of the money and power they have just because of a few thousand abused and hungry children. They may still have soft spot in their heart for polygamy and all the evils that go with it. They are not motivated to enforce existing law or eliminate loopholes written into it. Children don’t vote or make campaign contributions.
To reform these groups the first thing you would have to do would be to amend all the falsified birth certificates. That would mean almost cult wide DNA testing. Second close loopholes in those laws to make them enforceable. Penalties and resources would have to be sufficient to ensure compliance. Third corrupt law enforcement and public officials would have to be replaced with non cult or corrupt motivated people. That would allow enforcement of truancy, child labor, incest, rape, statutory rape and child support laws. Forth new legislation would need to be passed to stop other abuses. To get that passed it would have to be carefully worded as to not affect or offend the Mormons. Convince them of such and that still that might not be enough.
Hi Lindsay, I have listened to the entire podcast and I have learned so much! Thank you! One thing I really appreciate is how hard you have worked to include and respect various viewpoints on this topic. I feel that the one group you don’t give the same respect to however is those who don’t necessarily believe that Joseph was at the center of polygamy — that perhaps he did oppose it, at least at some point, and that it had more to do with Brigham Young than Joseph Smith. I know many people who honestly study the evidence and see room to draw different conclusions. I know that you don’t agree with those conclusions, but I wish you would treat them with the same respect as you treat fundamentalists and other people whose conclusions you don’t agree with. I think it is worth at least hearing them out so that your listeners can at least understand where they are coming from and form their own conclusions. Would you please consider an episode on this topic. I can recommend people who would be good choices to advance these views. Please consider an episode on this topic. I think it would be a service to your listeners and would make your podcast more inclusive. Thanks!
If for no other reason than consideration of Emma, I think we should give her the respect of at least listening to her and considering her words rather than just writing them all off as obvious lies. I think she deserves far better than she has received from nearly everyone on this topic.
Hi Lindsay, I have been listening to the podcast and I have to say that I have enjoyed it immensely. I want to thank you very much for your hard work and dedication on this project. I am sure many people like me have benefited from it and will continue to benefit by your hard work for years to come.
I was moved to write you today because of the story at the beginning of episode 98, which I was listening to this afternoon. You talked about how the doctrine of the celestial kingdom was one of the most painful and confusing doctrines to an average member in the LDS church. Like the girl in your story who experienced anxiety about the afterlife because her father drank alcohol, I grew up feeling a great deal of anxiety because of this doctrine. I grew up in a part member family with a non-member father. I have thought often about the confusion and anxiety I felt when I would hear about the celestial kingdom. For me, hearing this doctrine was a reminder that I did not have an eternal family. I would worry about where I would go when I died. Where would my mom go? Where would my dad go? If my dad was going to another kingdom, I wanted to go with him and I wanted my mom to go there too, even if it wasn’t as great. It was a lot of a little child to worry about. As I grew older and learned more of the doctrine, I realized that my mother was probably still sealed to her abusive ex-husband who was still a member which made me wonder if my brother and I were sealed to him in a weird way as well. It was so messy and complicated and confusing to me. For people whose entire family is Mormon it must have been a comforting idea knowing that you’re whole family it going to be together when you die but for me it was the complete opposite. People would actually tell me that I could always baptize him and be sealed to him when he died some day. How weird that a child is expected to look forward to the day her father dies so that she can finally be sealed to him. I never felt like I fit in. My family didn’t fit the Mormon mold in so many ways and reminders of that could be painful.
I felt validated hearing that girl’s story in your podcast today. I felt like I wasn’t alone in feeling this way.
Thanks again for your hard work!
Life changing Lindsay. Life changing. I have the utmost respect and reverence for you. Your work has, in no uncertain terms, changed my life forever. Thank you thank you thank you.
Lindsay, Well done, it’s a great podcast. The intro hip hop techno music is an interesting choice, but thank elohim for fast forward. Thanks for compiling this interesting history in an easily accessible way.
Just so you know, I love Gracanne very much. But to tell some truths. My father Jack Cooke was arrested and Charged with one count of Statatory rape. He never repented. I was a child when he first started persueing me. I withstood him for seventeen years. The details I shall not share. I am not brain washed, uneducated or a criminal. He was very violent and beat his children a lot. They were all afraid of him. I was not. The last day I seen him, he came in and put his hands in my pance. I had told him if he ever went near one of his children again I would have him arrested. My mother hung a religious saying on her wall, about God coming quilckly and recieving me to himself. I think he did come. For the next day, the state came to my house and arrested him. I knew he would kill me for talking to them, so the state took me into protective custody. I ever asked for his abuse, nor did I ask for such a vile man to b e my father. I did not see him again and have no desire to see him again. Only at Blaine funeral did I see him. Up to then people believed his children lied. He talked so gross at the funeral he was never asked to speak again. I felt as if everyone should have supported me in having him arrested, but was treated as if I was the bad guy. I was treated as if I was him, or tainted or something for reporting abuse and stopping it. I am glad I did. I never would have supported this. And in the bible it says a man like this should be stoned with his family, and feel that would have been more merciful, than what society did to me, for they hurt me more than my creepy father did.
Hey Lindsey I have someone I think you should interview. His name is Ray Jessop. He is married to Carolee Jessop. I don’t have their contact info but I’m sure you can get it. Their story is great but what is different about them from the others that you have done is that Ray spent time in South Dakota. He has some very interesting stories abiut that place and what took place there. I believe at one time he had three wives but I think Carolee is the only one with him at this point. I also believe that he was part of some sort of squad. Not sure about that part because it has been a couple of years since I have heard their story. Either way, if you can get them I don’t think you will be disappointed. Thanks
You mentioned in a previous podcast that over the years several Mormons have had conflicts with the government, the Bundy ranching family being among them.
I would be very interested in hearing an interview with one of the family members, particularly Ammon Bundy. I would like to hear him discuss his Mormon faith and whether or not he believes that faith played a role in the Bunkerville standoff in Nevada in 2014 and the subsequent takeover of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in Oregon.
I have had a great interest in the Bundy story since the dispute with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees.
I’ve been listening to this podcast for the past two months or so, and WOW. I’m in awe of the sheer amount of work that had to go into this–and very grateful. It’s a wonderful window into American religious culture.
I don’t have a broader point to this message–just drive-by appreciation for your hard work. 🙂
Hey Lindsay the work you do is completely amazing I was wondering if you were going to be putting up the color of Heaven podcast anytime soon I was only able to find the first episode online I would really love to hear the rest……esp episode 2!!!!!! You are my hero!
Thank you for this amazing informative website. I am fascinated with these stories. I have always hated polygamy & now I hate it more. I can go to my grave knowing JS & BY were fallen prophets & I never need to worry about plural marriage again or any of JS’s other stupid after life writings.
Years ago I went through a really ugly abusive Mormon marriage & divorce. I have written a book about it & succeeding afterward. I am looking for a publisher. Can you give me any ideas? Thanks again for all your great research.
Question? The “for time OR for eternity” as separate sealings excuse has been used again in the Cook Q&A. I’ve looked, but can’t find which of Jospeh’s wives were sealed only for time, and which were sealed only for eternity. It seems to be a general excuse to placate questions, but where do I find the details and numbers? Your expertise is highly applauded and appreciated.
Lindsay,
I enjoy listening to YoP! Just sharing a podcast you might enjoy: “Women’s voices in Mormon and Christian Science history–commonalities/differences” from Seekers and Scholars, produced by the Mary Baker Eddy Library in Boston.
I’ve been listening to your podcast “Year of Polygamy.” Surprising and fascinating information.
Today I was thinking as I’m getting into the Utah history of polygamy… Have you researched the history from New York, Illinois, Ohio, Missouri (etc.) to get their perspective of the history?
Lindsay. In the first episode you said you don’t think polygamy was something called of God, but you do believe Joseph Smith was otherwise inspired and you said you would explain later how you make that work. I’ve learned so much from your work as I’ve been listening and I’ve been looking forward to hearing you tell me how you’ve come to terms with these seemingly opposing positions. Could you please refer me to the episode where you reveal this?
Thank you so much for sharing all things you’ve learned about this. You mentioned in the first episode that you had come to terms with Joseph Smith and his position in the church and the church as a whole, but you don’t believe polygamy was inspired. You said you would explain how you work through that in your mind later. Could you tell me what episode I can hear your thoughts on that?
Lindsay I heard some of your back shows today. Sorry for the pain you have been going through the last few years. My thoughts are with you and wish you the best. You are pretty amazing. Do what ever you need to do to bring peace to your heart. Loyal listener and fan.
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Thanks for the awesome podcast!
Way back in 1990, I sat my grandmother down to talk about growing up in the Church and in Salt Lake City. She was the daughter of Andrew Jenson, longtime assistant church historian. Anyway, the tape sat for several decades, until I put some highlights together with some photos and some photos from the era. You might enjoy the resulting video, as we did talk about polygamy in the interview. It’s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM0QRrjCNIY
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Have you done an episode on “The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion?”
Overview:
• The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion is a small sect founded by Ken Asay in 1984 in Provo, UT. Ken moved the sect to Independence, MO in February 1985, after being excommunicated from the LDS Church. http://www.infomutt.com/c/ch/church_of_jesus_christ_in_zion.html
• The origins of the church are based on claims by Ken Asay that he started receiving revelations in the Provo Temple, and then in his home, after an encounter with Elder Neal A. Maxwell, while traveling next to him on a plane. https://web.archive.org/web/20070203021547/http://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/
o According to Asay, as the plane was landing, Elder Maxwell asked Ken if he knew what was going to happen to the LDS Church. Elder Maxwell answered by taking a napkin and tearing it in half, laying it down ominously.
o This caused Asay to take a one-month break from work, spending every day, all day, in the Provo Temple, pondering this and other gospel items.
o He claims manifestations/revelations started in the Provo Temple in March of 1983, when an angel appeared to him in the Celestial Room.
o He claimed he then received a series of heavenly manifestations in both the Provo Temple and in his Orem home.
o He was told the Zion of the Lord was back in Jackson County, MO, as revealed to Joseph Smith, and that the LDS Church was not going to be the organization that reestablished Zion there.
o He was told he was the one that God had chosen to bring about the reestablishment of Zion through another Church, the Church of Jesus Christ in Zion, and subsequently received keys to do so directly from Joseph Smith. Supposedly, the LDS Church was only a preparatory church, and Ken’s church would be the organization that prepared Zion.
o The new church would live a higher order. Where the LDS Church would live the law of tithing, Ken’s church would live the Law of Consecration. Where the LDS Church would wear garments and perform endowments, Ken’s church would be where members would come and receive their Second Annointings.
o Ken taught there was no organization, each family is a “church,” and anyone who can testify of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost is a “prophet.” http://packham.n4m.org/prophet2.htm
o Ken and the sect practiced polygamy, believing it to be one of the higher order principles/doctrines taught by Joseph.
o Ken eventually started to claim he was Joseph Smith reincarnated, but it is not clear how he explained he had been given “keys” from Joseph Smith while also being Smith.
o Asay also preached Brigham Young’s Adam God doctrine, claiming he had the spirit of Adam within himself. This doctrine claims that Heavenly Father is actually Adam.
o The church also believes in a doctrine of “multiple lives.” This doctrine is similar to reincarnation; however, humans may only be reborn as other humans.
• Ken Asay died with his wife Nila in a 1985 plane crash.
o His children sued the plane mfg, claiming the crash was caused by a defect. The plane manufacturer claimed it was a suicide, brought on by business failures and financial strain.
o The following link discusses the crash, how Ken Asay’s attorneys confirmed he believed he was Joseph Smith reincarnated and that he practiced polygamy. http://www.deseretnews.com/article/59199/85-CRASH-A-PLANE-MALFUNCTION-OR-SUICIDE.html?pg=all
o According to an article that used to be viewable at the link below, but has recently stopped working, a lawsuit was brought by a woman named Jody Eyre, who claimed to be Ken’s plural wife, in an effort to gain custody of Ken and Nila’s children. http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/107040869038/roger-billings-is-the-brother-of-former-republican
• The sect survived Ken’s death. Members of the church believe Ken ordained another member of the church, prior to his death, to be Prophet/Patriarch. His name is Roger Billings and he currently lives in Blue Springs, MO (near Independence, MO). Roger Billings is a former member of the LDS Church, BYU grad, and world-renowned scientist specializing in hydrogen power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_E._Billings
• There is another man, David Bradley Eyre, who appears to be a major leader within the sect. He was part of the original formation of the sect and was ordained Second Elder, with Ken being First Elder. After Ken’s death, David claims he became First Elder. It is unclear what the hierarchy of titles and roles is in the sect, but it appears Roger Billing is at the head as Patriarch and David Eyre is First Elder.
• It is unclear whether the sect still operates, disbanded or went underground in 2005.
o A website run by Roger Billing’s son (last updated 2013, former member of the sect), stated there were two locations for the sect. The first has about 120 people and operates privately in Independence, MO. He claims there is another location, 82 miles north of Independence, in Gallatin, MO with an unreported number of people operating in secluded farmland areas. https://web.archive.org/web/20130510043645/http://breatheforoxygen.com:80/rog-billings-cult/
o Other web searches state the group disbanded in 2005 https://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_in_Zion
o Further confusing things is the sect’s old website address (www.churchofjesuschrist.org) was purchased by the LDS Church in 2019 as part of President Nelson’s efforts to get people to stop referring to the church as “LDS” or “Mormon.” Up until the purchase, the website was still active for the sect.
Curiously, all Wikipedia articles related the sect stopped working after 2015. All articles on KSL about Roger, his polygamous practices, the lawsuit by Jody Eyre trying to gain custody of Ken’s children after the crash, etc., have stopped working recently as well. Articles that used to be on KSL about Roger no longer work. It is very suspicious that the LDS Church would need the sect’s website, pay for it, and then all these articles would become unavailable.
• Web searches also indicate there was some form of consolidation with the sect and the “Church of Scientology Kansas City Mission” back in the 80’s. It appears former members of the LDS church who had become Scientologists may have merged with Ken’s sect in 1984. http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php?topic=6466.0 http://www.deseretnews.com/article/575041045/Publicity-follows-Billings-brother.html?pg=all
• In addition to running the church, Roger Billings operates an alternative science and math educational program in Independence, MO named the “International Academy of Science,” an unaccredited school (http://www.science.edu).
• Billings also runs a number of businesses located in the Independence, MO area, including;
o WideBand Corp (high-speed networking)
o Billings Energy Corporation (a hydrogen fuel-cell research company)
o Acellus Labs (a system of educational software)
• Billings is rumored to have 38 wives and more than 70 children. This link on KSL used to discuss it but no longer works. It is suspicious to me that KSL would no longer give access to the article following the LDS Church’s purchase of the sect’s website. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=79558
Thanks, Lindsay, for all you do to bring to light the history and truth of polygamy, especially from an LDS perspective.
I’m aware that you believe your research has confirmed that Joseph practiced polygamy. Along those lines, if you haven’t heard this, you might find it interesting…
Lindsay I am trying to go back and re listen to your podcast about my grandfather and same name sake Warren Longhurst. You mentioned that he married a plural wife after the manifesto in Colonia Dublan, Chihuahua, Mexico. If you can give me the podcast # and supporting documents, I will greatly appreciate it.
Listening to your messages has helped me connect a lot of dots within my personal studies of God’s true intentions for his family.
These are some of the things that I’ve come to understand and thought I’d share to get your opinion on:
Monogamy – God’s Only “One” Way
God lets people do what they are going to do, so that people can do what they are going to do, no matter who that person is or what office they hold.
Genesis 4:25, no mention of other wife, but only one
Mathew 19:4,5,6 Jesus associates bad behavior with polygamy only
1 Corinthians 7:2, Paul excludes polygamy and specifies monogamy as “the good”
1 Timothy 3:2,12, same
Jacob 2-3, Jacob declares that God associates nothing good with polygamy, only bad. If only bad comes from polygamy, why then, would God ever command men to do it? If Emma felt the same as these Nephite wives, then Jacob’s words should apply to Joseph and Brigham as well, despite the time difference. Hebrews 13:8, 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 29:9, Alma 31:17, Moroni 10:19
Jacob 2:30 is the single crutch that LDS contemporaries use to justify polygamy, but the misinterpretation thereof will be explained below:
In-context interpretation:
“if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [God’s way: Jacob 2:27-29 monogamy]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [Man’s way: Jacob 2:23-24 polygamy]”
Out-of-context interpretation:
“if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [at times – polygamy]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [at other times – monogamy]”
The idea that because Jacob does not list Abraham with David and Solomon should give the reader the right to “assume” the role of God and declare that polygamy is His will “at times”, is dangerous. On the contrary, never has it specifically been written in scripture that polygamy “is” God’s will. Only the opposite is true, it is specifically written that it is “not” God’s will. Especially in the Book of Mormon, where polygamy is never condoned, but “only” condemned. Thinking spiritually and logically, why would God ever condone something “at times” that He has clearly only ever condemned?
The idea that God says, “polygamy is an abomination unto me today, but tomorrow it will be a holy practice” is like God saying, “light is light today, but tomorrow light will be dark”.
Take note that it has never been specifically written in the canonized scriptures as a “commandment from God”, to His children, to actually “practice” polygamy until Joseph’s and Brigham’s introduction of it. Who were both men.
Finally, to put things into perspective, one of the substance-less fruits of polygamy is the follow: As a man awakes lying in bed next to his second wife, if he has Christlike love, he will wonder how alone his first wife must feel as she awakes lying in bed next to no one. Adding more wives to the picture will just expand the loneliness even further.
A real man sees no other females, because he has eyes for only one woman.
Hi Lindsay
I have just finished listening to all of the available episodes of the year of polygamy podcast. It’s been an interesting journey, especially as I am not Mormon (actually I am not religious at all). It was a good history of the Mormon church, polygamy within the church, and the westward migration in the 1800s. I have left a small donation to thank you for your efforts.
My knowledge of Mormons and polygamy was largely Gentile pop-culture knowledge before this podcast. For example, as a child I was told that Mormons used to practice polygamy but they no longer do. Then when I saw things like sister wives on TV, I realized that it was still going on. And when Warren Jeffs was arrested and convicted and all that mess came out in the news, I realized there was also a very sinister side to it.
You’ve done a great job of interviewing people in a non-judgemental way. Your technique is great and very effective for showing that there are always two sides to the story, two ways of looking at things. One example I can think of is whether or not polygamy is criminalized, you would automatically think that if there were strict and harsh penalties that were enforced, polygamy would go away. But one of your interviewees pointed out that criminalizing polygamy makes people hide it, living in the middle of nowhere in isolated communities, and the young girls born into this culture don’t realize they have another choice or they would frequently choose another choice such as monogamy. So criminalizing it actually perpetuates it. That never would’ve occurred to me.
I have my own opinions about polygamy which are not important. I’ve watched a few TV show such as three wives one husband and my five wives. Also a couple episodes of sister wives and a couple documentaries about the FLDS. While the wives don’t seem distressed, there are lots of times when it looks like their life is painful. And I wonder, had they been raised with exposure to more choices, would they have chosen to be a plural wife? An example I can give of this is on my five wives, Polly on more than one occasion says that when she was growing up she always knew she would be a plural wife. That was what was expected of her and that is what she did. And they show the wedding picture with the second wife and Polly is largely pregnant and it just broke my heart. When I see things like that I have to be fair and make a comparison with monogamous marriage. These men with several wives treat each of their wives better than lots of monogamous men treat their only wife. And let’s not kid ourselves, monogamous people get divorced all the time and remarried and it’s just like serial polygamy or something. Pros and cons.
If you are interested in the viewpoint of a non-religious outsider just learning about all the stuff, feel free to contact me.
Diane McCormick
Hi Lindsay,
I appreciate your show and your research you’ve done on church history. I had a history question I hope you can help me with.
Rumor has it that Joseph Smith might have been inspired by a former Scottish colonizer in America who set up a community where everyone shared everyone’s property and everyone could love and be intimate with everyone who lived there. Have you heard of such rumor?
Hi Lindsay!
Do you have transcripts of these podcasts anywhere? If not are you interested in having them transcribed? I would love to volunteer to help with that. I’m not the fastest but I am pretty invested in making this more accessible!
Thank you so much for sharing this! I can’t even handle how insane our beginnings were. Are you still a member of the Church? I don’t know how you still can . Have you ever read lettertomywife.com ? If not you should. So grateful for your work.
Hi Lindsay,
I’ve heard a few of these podcasts but for the most part I know of you for your continued contribution on the Mormon Matters podcasts. I always love your input there and always find myself nodding emphatically along to your comments. I appreciate that you don’t seem to sugar coat things as much as some of the others, which is really refreshing for me.
I wanted to ask you a couple of things: 1) was it your FB post that I saw John Dehlin share where there was a service project and/or opportunity to help the FLDS in “Tent City”? I would like to contribute some funding if you know how I can do that.
Secondly, in your research, to what extent do those living or having had lived polygamy have threesomes (or more I guess)? Is it common? Non-existent? Was it allowed? Expressly prohibited? I know it sounds like a crude question, but I really feel the answer speaks to the supposed origin/authenticity of the revelation of polygamy or if it truly was made-up by man. Whatever you can share is appreciated.
Keep up the good work!
Thanks,
Aaron
I’m almost to the end, but episode 91 links to episode 82. I’ll finish what’s there but could that link be fixed? Thank you!
On year of polygamy pod cast on 1890 manifesto and something about Mormon writers response the numbers in the late 50’s. Error 404 comes up. I’m enjoying your cast and thank you so much for a fine job. I’m a friend of Ogden Kraut who died back in 2002. I think he would of loved your show. His wife is Anne Wilde whom I believe you have talked to. I love your guest and research. Very fair and even handed. It has given me a well rounded perspective. Your awesome. Keep it up. I have had the opportunity to do deep research myself back in the late 90’s when I was going to BYU. May you and your family have peace and joy. Charlie Pemberton
Lindsay,
I want to present an unconventional theological argument about how eternal relationships might work.
First, I want to say that I am heterosexual, monogamous, active LDS. I acknowledge that polygamy has been discriminatory devastating and often fundamentally unfair to women and that it is very disturbing and repulsive to many people today. If women are property and second class citizens in the eternities subjected to husbands, the practice seems ungodly and harmful.
That said, let me have us imagine eternity and that relationships can continue into the eternities. Now many of us have loved more than one person during our lives. We can and do choose and can be monogamous with our chosen partner. Some of us are confident that we have found our eternal monogamous heterosexual partner and that we will be happy with them for all eternity and that is great.
Yet some of us have a spouse who dies and we fall in love again and then if our relationships can continue in the eternities how would we choose which to stay connected to and which would we give up if we were wanting to stay eternally monogamous? What pain for the second spouse who is not chosen and what happens to the not chosen spouse? If relationships continue then things are messy. Lets say a man marries two women in life and both women in the eternities are ok with being in a plural eternal relationship? So who are we as monogamous believers to tell them that they can’t organize their eternal relationships to how they choose to do so with their agency. What right do we have to tell them because we believe in monogamy that others have to live eternally only with one partner and stay with that heterosexual partner forever to satisfy our sense of moral correctness?
Now when we realize that the LDS Church has changed its policy and now allows woman to be sealed to another man after the death of a spouse. So if the option to have more than one spouse eternally is not limited only to men but is also open to women, then it may mean that women are not eternally second class citizens eternally.
Now implicit in eternal relationships is agency, that all people consent.
If we add based on D&C 132:66 that God will reveal more about the law in the future, that same sex marriage should be approved and polyandry allowed eternally, then we can allow people to choose who they want to live eternally with without being sanctioned by others.
Netwok relationships would exist with a man married to more than one woman who are married in turn to more than one men and or women. We seem to manage blended families and blended parenting so why could it not be manageable in the eternities?
Imagine thou not having the ability to enter into and leave relationships in the eternities? Well not so good. So we need to add the ability to enter into and change and exit relationships in the eternities.
So for me the genesis of polygamy may actually be a way that we can provide agency and fairness to eternal relationships. If relationships can be eternal then, to me I need to be accepting of other’s choices and it to be all ok.
Let me know what you think.
Have you thinking in record a spanish version? it’ll be extraordinarie.
I’m trying to listen to them in order, but the link for Episode 91 actually takes you back to episode 82. It makes me sad. Can that be fixed please? It does it both on the FMH site and Year of Polygamy site. Thanks!
In attempting to listen to the podcast on the AUB, I have noted a couple of times now that the podcast restarts early in the program, at approximately the point where BH Roberts and Reed Smoot are being discussed. I had hoped that waiting a week or so would give the problem time to work through bu so far, no luck. Thanks!
I recently ordered and read Ms. Pearson’s book. As someone who is the descendant of poligamists, I’ve got “plural marriage” coming at me a dozen different directions. Like most women, I don’t like it at all. Because of poligamy I had no interest in my great-great-grandfathers because I didn’t like how my great-great-grandmothers and their children were treated. For example, my great-grandmother wanted to go to college, but because another half sister her age didn’t want to go to college, they opted not to send her. Where’s the sense in that?
Also, I have a great-great-grandfather who married my great-great-grandmother when she was barely 14 – or younger. I realize at the time, it was common for girls to marry as soon as they entered puberty, but she was just a few months older than some of my great-great-grandfather’s children. She was an orphan and I realize she really needed help, but should he have adopted her instead. He also married two of his nieces – his brother’s daughters. How desperate were those girls to get married. This was all at the behest of Brigham Young. What was he thinking?????????????????????? Wasn’t this incest.
In another case Young encouraged another great-great-grandmother to marry a man he had specifically asked to marry her. The marriage barely lasted a year. Where was the inspiration there??????
Another great-great grandfather married a second wife after his first wife, my great-great-grandmother had died. He later deserted her for a 16-year old and basically turned the other wife into the “farmer” where she supported both families. He was the bishop at the time during all this.
There were so many injustices and massive hurts along the way. It’s still not fair nor is it right. Women aren’t chattel nor are they property. They should be allowed to be sealed to more than one man. A female friend of mine has been sealed to both her husbands the second of which she was married to longer than the first guy and who she also had children with. A widowed or divorced woman shouldn’t be considered less than because she’s been sealed to another man. The whole thing proves such a gigantic mess that, it’s true, only God can straighten it out. I think it all boils down to giving women equal opportunities in marriage and allowing them to be sealed to more than one man.
Hi Lindsay,
Have you seen this show? I just listened to your “year of polygamy” podcast on Mormon Stories. Some girls that escaped the Kingston group have been helping other women escape and are doing a show to bring the issues to light. Maybe y’all could connect and combine forces?
http://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/escaping-polygamy-star-church-says-im-not-worthy-to-see-my-daughter-w434398
Episodes 59 and 60 link Error 404 pages. Can you please get this fixed? I’ve been listening in order, and these two missing episodes are on extremely interesting topics. I don’t want to miss them!
These cults have a couple of thousand Jaycee Lee Dugards in the custody of hundreds of Phillip Garridos with no Rebecca Baileys to clean up the mess. The only difference between these girls and Jaycee is they were born into captivity not kidnapped into it. They did not chose that life any more than she did. Their brainwashed parents, at one time victims themselves are coconspirators In their abuse and exploitation. Keep in mind that they have been kept isolated all their lives and don’t have fantast idea what’s going on in the real world. Like Jaycee they have been fed a steady diet of highly deceptive and manipulative misinformation. Much of it unrealistic unsupported ultra extreme religious rhetoric and threats. Just to name a few they believe Warren Jeffs is the president of the united states and is going to get out of jail tomorrow. They don’t believe inbreeding is real. They don’t believe man ever stepped foot on the moon and NASA doesn’t exists. They have intentionally introduced phobias, fear and shun outsiders, the internet and every other form electronic or printed communication. With no alternative point of view they can be told just about anything and they will believe it. They are unlikely to ask for help.
SEE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Jaycee_Dugard
Unlike Jaycee when they escape polygamy they lose their family not get them back. They do not get a penny from the state and are totally on their own to sink or swim. They all have issues, face seemingly insurmountable challenges and are in need of counseling. These Escapes are not always successful. Sometimes the dragon wins. Some girls make repeated unsuccessful escape attempts. Some file for emancipation and are denied. Some take their own lives. Some who have access to information about tax fraud , welfare fraud, money laundering and hidden assets try to take down the organization from inside, by supplying it to the government. Some run away and are returned to the cult, which has custodial rights yielded to them by their parents. This effectively makes them the property of the cult. They all suffer in silence and fear.
There are two main groups the FLDS(Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints) headed by The Profit Warren Jeffs(serving life +20), in the south and a splinter group called The Kingston Group or The Order headed by The Profit Paul Kingston(under investigation), around Salt Lake city. These two should share a cell with Philip and Charlie. I wonder how they would get along. Both groups are the subject of a variety of federal and a few state investigations for many violations and have many members in jail or on the run. Despite that most of what they do goes uninvestigated. There are also many civil suits pending against them as well. You would be amazed at what goes on in these groups. Both groups tell their members that gods law is above man’s law so they above the law. They are descended directly from god and there for superior to mere mortals like us(gentiles). Many people view these groups as organized crime syndicates not churches. Paul Kingston being called the John Gotti of religion. You will have to decide for yourself what they are.
The children are exploited in every way that children can be exploited, sexily, fanatically, genetically, nutritionally, educationally and neglected. They face a life of malnutrition and food shortages, due to the size of their family. They receive absolutely no support from the father, who has a dozen or so wives and a dozen or so kids buy each one. At age 8-13 they are sent to lying school to be taught to shun or lie to everyone outside the cult especially non cult police, social workers and welfare workers. At 12 to 13 the girls plan their wedding to an assigned husband, usually an uncle 30 years there senior or a cousin who may already have multiple wives. If they resist they are sometimes beaten by their own father. They may be reassigned at a later date. All cult members are already 5th or 6th generation inbred. Stillbirths and horrible birth defects not uncommon and becoming more common with each generation. Many of the babies have very short lives. If they live to see their first birthday their falsified birth certificates are filed(in Angel and Starlet’s case none where filed). At a minimum the father’s name is ether blank or factious. If the mother was underage her name and/or the birth date might be as well. Unlawfully falsified to protect the cult and the parents from charges of truancy, child labor law violations, incest, polygamy, rape, statutory rape and lack of child support. By 15 or sometimes earlier they are out of school and are working long hours at subminimum wages or script if they are paid at all. Many girls have been repeatedly molested buy their husbands to be. Viewed as breading stock, by 16 or maybe sooner they are celestial or spiritual(not legally married) wives, pregnant, working for a cult owned business and are expected have a child every year from then on. This is how the Mormon church and the cults built their numbers into what they are today. They claim to double in size every year and expect to take over North America. With their incredible birth rate they might do just that.
I don’t know what these girls did to deserve to be born into a polygamist cult. Maybe they’re not righteous enough to be endowed by their Creator with unalienable Rights. They certainly do not have Liberty, may not refuse sex, may not communicate outside the cult, may not own anything and they do not have freedom of speech. They are not free. The police in short crick will not help these girls. The police are members of the cult and totally corrupt. If Jaycee had been born in to one of these cults she would still be behind walls destitute, without hope of rescue and her daughters would face the same. No one in the cult is allowed to communicate with the outside world, no TV, newspaper, internet, books magazines, etcetera. Of course there are lots of walls and fences. Walls, cameras and the god squad(vigilantes) are every ware to make sure there is no communication with the outside world. They are kept totally isolated. If they had knowledge of the outside world they might be tempted to make decisions in their own best interest. Heaven forbid such a thing.
While the high ranking members, the Philip Garados of the church(cult) get fresh cute young naive wives every year or so. There aren’t enough left for the lower ranking men. The surplus boys are apostatized(banished), destitute, uneducated, sometimes illiterate, shun by family and friend alike, warned never to step foot on church(cult) property again or else. Exceptions are made if they can buy their way back in($5,000 or so) or bring a fresh wife in from outside the cult. A least until they get kicked out again and their wife reassigned to a high ranking member. The high ranking elite members live a luxurious life style with all the sex, money and power that their hart could desire while the lower ranking members go hungry, especially the children.
SEE: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jun/14/usa.julianborger
Reform looks unlikely. Without outside intervention I don’t see it happening. 62.2 percent about two thirds of population and two thirds of the electorate of Utah is Mormon. Which means The Mormon church, which operates behind closed doors is the government without any form of checks and balances. The equivalent of one party rule. The Mormon church receives 10% of the memberships income, about $7 billion a year. Plus interest on previous years income. No elected official can attain or stay in office without at least their tacit approval. Although the Mormon church under duress renounced, at least publicly polygamy in 1890 it uses and has used the same tactics to grow into what it is today. They are not going to give up even a small portion of the money and power they have just because of a few thousand abused and hungry children. They may still have soft spot in their heart for polygamy and all the evils that go with it. They are not motivated to enforce existing law or eliminate loopholes written into it. Children don’t vote or make campaign contributions.
To reform these groups the first thing you would have to do would be to amend all the falsified birth certificates. That would mean almost cult wide DNA testing. Second close loopholes in those laws to make them enforceable. Penalties and resources would have to be sufficient to ensure compliance. Third corrupt law enforcement and public officials would have to be replaced with non cult or corrupt motivated people. That would allow enforcement of truancy, child labor, incest, rape, statutory rape and child support laws. Forth new legislation would need to be passed to stop other abuses. To get that passed it would have to be carefully worded as to not affect or offend the Mormons. Convince them of such and that still that might not be enough.
Wow. This is all wonderful stuff!
I registered for Sunstone Short Creek but haven’t received any info. How will I know if I am registered?
Hi Lindsay, I have listened to the entire podcast and I have learned so much! Thank you! One thing I really appreciate is how hard you have worked to include and respect various viewpoints on this topic. I feel that the one group you don’t give the same respect to however is those who don’t necessarily believe that Joseph was at the center of polygamy — that perhaps he did oppose it, at least at some point, and that it had more to do with Brigham Young than Joseph Smith. I know many people who honestly study the evidence and see room to draw different conclusions. I know that you don’t agree with those conclusions, but I wish you would treat them with the same respect as you treat fundamentalists and other people whose conclusions you don’t agree with. I think it is worth at least hearing them out so that your listeners can at least understand where they are coming from and form their own conclusions. Would you please consider an episode on this topic. I can recommend people who would be good choices to advance these views. Please consider an episode on this topic. I think it would be a service to your listeners and would make your podcast more inclusive. Thanks!
If for no other reason than consideration of Emma, I think we should give her the respect of at least listening to her and considering her words rather than just writing them all off as obvious lies. I think she deserves far better than she has received from nearly everyone on this topic.
Hey a heads up…the fonts are really hard to read… on Chrome… at least.. I’d recommend making them a bit darker.
Hi Lindsay, I have been listening to the podcast and I have to say that I have enjoyed it immensely. I want to thank you very much for your hard work and dedication on this project. I am sure many people like me have benefited from it and will continue to benefit by your hard work for years to come.
I was moved to write you today because of the story at the beginning of episode 98, which I was listening to this afternoon. You talked about how the doctrine of the celestial kingdom was one of the most painful and confusing doctrines to an average member in the LDS church. Like the girl in your story who experienced anxiety about the afterlife because her father drank alcohol, I grew up feeling a great deal of anxiety because of this doctrine. I grew up in a part member family with a non-member father. I have thought often about the confusion and anxiety I felt when I would hear about the celestial kingdom. For me, hearing this doctrine was a reminder that I did not have an eternal family. I would worry about where I would go when I died. Where would my mom go? Where would my dad go? If my dad was going to another kingdom, I wanted to go with him and I wanted my mom to go there too, even if it wasn’t as great. It was a lot of a little child to worry about. As I grew older and learned more of the doctrine, I realized that my mother was probably still sealed to her abusive ex-husband who was still a member which made me wonder if my brother and I were sealed to him in a weird way as well. It was so messy and complicated and confusing to me. For people whose entire family is Mormon it must have been a comforting idea knowing that you’re whole family it going to be together when you die but for me it was the complete opposite. People would actually tell me that I could always baptize him and be sealed to him when he died some day. How weird that a child is expected to look forward to the day her father dies so that she can finally be sealed to him. I never felt like I fit in. My family didn’t fit the Mormon mold in so many ways and reminders of that could be painful.
I felt validated hearing that girl’s story in your podcast today. I felt like I wasn’t alone in feeling this way.
Thanks again for your hard work!
Life changing Lindsay. Life changing. I have the utmost respect and reverence for you. Your work has, in no uncertain terms, changed my life forever. Thank you thank you thank you.
Lindsay, Well done, it’s a great podcast. The intro hip hop techno music is an interesting choice, but thank elohim for fast forward. Thanks for compiling this interesting history in an easily accessible way.
Just so you know, I love Gracanne very much. But to tell some truths. My father Jack Cooke was arrested and Charged with one count of Statatory rape. He never repented. I was a child when he first started persueing me. I withstood him for seventeen years. The details I shall not share. I am not brain washed, uneducated or a criminal. He was very violent and beat his children a lot. They were all afraid of him. I was not. The last day I seen him, he came in and put his hands in my pance. I had told him if he ever went near one of his children again I would have him arrested. My mother hung a religious saying on her wall, about God coming quilckly and recieving me to himself. I think he did come. For the next day, the state came to my house and arrested him. I knew he would kill me for talking to them, so the state took me into protective custody. I ever asked for his abuse, nor did I ask for such a vile man to b e my father. I did not see him again and have no desire to see him again. Only at Blaine funeral did I see him. Up to then people believed his children lied. He talked so gross at the funeral he was never asked to speak again. I felt as if everyone should have supported me in having him arrested, but was treated as if I was the bad guy. I was treated as if I was him, or tainted or something for reporting abuse and stopping it. I am glad I did. I never would have supported this. And in the bible it says a man like this should be stoned with his family, and feel that would have been more merciful, than what society did to me, for they hurt me more than my creepy father did.
Hey Lindsey I have someone I think you should interview. His name is Ray Jessop. He is married to Carolee Jessop. I don’t have their contact info but I’m sure you can get it. Their story is great but what is different about them from the others that you have done is that Ray spent time in South Dakota. He has some very interesting stories abiut that place and what took place there. I believe at one time he had three wives but I think Carolee is the only one with him at this point. I also believe that he was part of some sort of squad. Not sure about that part because it has been a couple of years since I have heard their story. Either way, if you can get them I don’t think you will be disappointed. Thanks
Lindsay,
You mentioned in a previous podcast that over the years several Mormons have had conflicts with the government, the Bundy ranching family being among them.
I would be very interested in hearing an interview with one of the family members, particularly Ammon Bundy. I would like to hear him discuss his Mormon faith and whether or not he believes that faith played a role in the Bunkerville standoff in Nevada in 2014 and the subsequent takeover of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in Oregon.
I have had a great interest in the Bundy story since the dispute with the Bureau of Land Management over grazing fees.
I’ve been listening to this podcast for the past two months or so, and WOW. I’m in awe of the sheer amount of work that had to go into this–and very grateful. It’s a wonderful window into American religious culture.
I don’t have a broader point to this message–just drive-by appreciation for your hard work. 🙂
The link on #139 Joseph Smith’s Indictment for Adultery and Fornication
https://www.yearofpolygamy.com/page/2/%20https:/rationalfaiths.com/joseph-smiths-indictment-for-adultery-and-fornication/
has both the YOP and the actual URL glued together… 🙁
Wondering what you think about the recent ruling of house arrest for Blackmore and Oler in B.C.. Very frustrating and distressing.
Hey Lindsay the work you do is completely amazing I was wondering if you were going to be putting up the color of Heaven podcast anytime soon I was only able to find the first episode online I would really love to hear the rest……esp episode 2!!!!!! You are my hero!
Thank you for this amazing informative website. I am fascinated with these stories. I have always hated polygamy & now I hate it more. I can go to my grave knowing JS & BY were fallen prophets & I never need to worry about plural marriage again or any of JS’s other stupid after life writings.
Years ago I went through a really ugly abusive Mormon marriage & divorce. I have written a book about it & succeeding afterward. I am looking for a publisher. Can you give me any ideas? Thanks again for all your great research.
Question? The “for time OR for eternity” as separate sealings excuse has been used again in the Cook Q&A. I’ve looked, but can’t find which of Jospeh’s wives were sealed only for time, and which were sealed only for eternity. It seems to be a general excuse to placate questions, but where do I find the details and numbers? Your expertise is highly applauded and appreciated.
I love these podcasts so much! They are extremely informative and interesting to listen to! Keep up the good work and thank you for all you do. 🙂
Lindsay,
I enjoy listening to YoP! Just sharing a podcast you might enjoy: “Women’s voices in Mormon and Christian Science history–commonalities/differences” from Seekers and Scholars, produced by the Mary Baker Eddy Library in Boston.
https://www.marybakereddylibrary.org/research/podcast/24-womens-voices-in-mormon-and-christian-science-history-commonalities-differences/
Best wishes,
Mike Hamilton
Executive Director
The Mary Baker Eddy Library
I’ve been listening to your podcast “Year of Polygamy.” Surprising and fascinating information.
Today I was thinking as I’m getting into the Utah history of polygamy… Have you researched the history from New York, Illinois, Ohio, Missouri (etc.) to get their perspective of the history?
I would love to see some of that.
I have really enjoyed your podcast! Just curious, are all the journal entries you share from found somewhere public?
Lindsay. In the first episode you said you don’t think polygamy was something called of God, but you do believe Joseph Smith was otherwise inspired and you said you would explain later how you make that work. I’ve learned so much from your work as I’ve been listening and I’ve been looking forward to hearing you tell me how you’ve come to terms with these seemingly opposing positions. Could you please refer me to the episode where you reveal this?
Thank you so much for sharing all things you’ve learned about this. You mentioned in the first episode that you had come to terms with Joseph Smith and his position in the church and the church as a whole, but you don’t believe polygamy was inspired. You said you would explain how you work through that in your mind later. Could you tell me what episode I can hear your thoughts on that?
Lindsay I heard some of your back shows today. Sorry for the pain you have been going through the last few years. My thoughts are with you and wish you the best. You are pretty amazing. Do what ever you need to do to bring peace to your heart. Loyal listener and fan.
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Thanks for the awesome podcast!
Way back in 1990, I sat my grandmother down to talk about growing up in the Church and in Salt Lake City. She was the daughter of Andrew Jenson, longtime assistant church historian. Anyway, the tape sat for several decades, until I put some highlights together with some photos and some photos from the era. You might enjoy the resulting video, as we did talk about polygamy in the interview. It’s here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM0QRrjCNIY
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And Tony Robbins, Russell Brunson and Dean Graziosi are finally going to show YOU how to take advantage of it…
(Now if you don’t already know who these 3 guys are then you’ll want to listen up!! They’ve impacted millions of lives and have generated billions of dollars)
Look, if you’ve ever thought about (or even if you never thought about) getting paid for something you know (like a passion or a skill)… or even getting paid from what others know, then you have to attend.
This is one of the fastest growing industries online and in all areas of the world.
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After hearing what they’re teaching, I truly believe this is the #1 way to make a massive income, make a massive impact on the world and leave a legacy!
And here’s just a fraction of what you’ll learn this week:
The mostly hidden $129 Billion dollar market and how you can make a massive impact and leave a legacy by profiting from it.
The KBB Triangle: The 3 ways to profit (whether you’re an expert with a thriving business, just getting started, or even if you’re at complete rock bottom)
The framework to profit from what you (or someone else) already knows – or by creating community and bringing people together.
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There’s no other time where you’re going to have this opportunity. So BE THERE! Because if you’re not going to make a shift in your life now, then when? And if not with these guys, then let me ask with who?
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Exactly where are your contact details though?
Have you done an episode on “The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion?”
Overview:
• The Church of Jesus Christ in Zion is a small sect founded by Ken Asay in 1984 in Provo, UT. Ken moved the sect to Independence, MO in February 1985, after being excommunicated from the LDS Church. http://www.infomutt.com/c/ch/church_of_jesus_christ_in_zion.html
• The origins of the church are based on claims by Ken Asay that he started receiving revelations in the Provo Temple, and then in his home, after an encounter with Elder Neal A. Maxwell, while traveling next to him on a plane.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070203021547/http://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/
o According to Asay, as the plane was landing, Elder Maxwell asked Ken if he knew what was going to happen to the LDS Church. Elder Maxwell answered by taking a napkin and tearing it in half, laying it down ominously.
o This caused Asay to take a one-month break from work, spending every day, all day, in the Provo Temple, pondering this and other gospel items.
o He claims manifestations/revelations started in the Provo Temple in March of 1983, when an angel appeared to him in the Celestial Room.
o He claimed he then received a series of heavenly manifestations in both the Provo Temple and in his Orem home.
o He was told the Zion of the Lord was back in Jackson County, MO, as revealed to Joseph Smith, and that the LDS Church was not going to be the organization that reestablished Zion there.
o He was told he was the one that God had chosen to bring about the reestablishment of Zion through another Church, the Church of Jesus Christ in Zion, and subsequently received keys to do so directly from Joseph Smith. Supposedly, the LDS Church was only a preparatory church, and Ken’s church would be the organization that prepared Zion.
o The new church would live a higher order. Where the LDS Church would live the law of tithing, Ken’s church would live the Law of Consecration. Where the LDS Church would wear garments and perform endowments, Ken’s church would be where members would come and receive their Second Annointings.
o Ken taught there was no organization, each family is a “church,” and anyone who can testify of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost is a “prophet.” http://packham.n4m.org/prophet2.htm
o Ken and the sect practiced polygamy, believing it to be one of the higher order principles/doctrines taught by Joseph.
o Ken eventually started to claim he was Joseph Smith reincarnated, but it is not clear how he explained he had been given “keys” from Joseph Smith while also being Smith.
o Asay also preached Brigham Young’s Adam God doctrine, claiming he had the spirit of Adam within himself. This doctrine claims that Heavenly Father is actually Adam.
o The church also believes in a doctrine of “multiple lives.” This doctrine is similar to reincarnation; however, humans may only be reborn as other humans.
• Ken Asay died with his wife Nila in a 1985 plane crash.
o His children sued the plane mfg, claiming the crash was caused by a defect. The plane manufacturer claimed it was a suicide, brought on by business failures and financial strain.
o The following link discusses the crash, how Ken Asay’s attorneys confirmed he believed he was Joseph Smith reincarnated and that he practiced polygamy.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/59199/85-CRASH-A-PLANE-MALFUNCTION-OR-SUICIDE.html?pg=all
o According to an article that used to be viewable at the link below, but has recently stopped working, a lawsuit was brought by a woman named Jody Eyre, who claimed to be Ken’s plural wife, in an effort to gain custody of Ken and Nila’s children.
http://politicsrusprinciple.tumblr.com/post/107040869038/roger-billings-is-the-brother-of-former-republican
• The sect survived Ken’s death. Members of the church believe Ken ordained another member of the church, prior to his death, to be Prophet/Patriarch. His name is Roger Billings and he currently lives in Blue Springs, MO (near Independence, MO). Roger Billings is a former member of the LDS Church, BYU grad, and world-renowned scientist specializing in hydrogen power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_E._Billings
• There is another man, David Bradley Eyre, who appears to be a major leader within the sect. He was part of the original formation of the sect and was ordained Second Elder, with Ken being First Elder. After Ken’s death, David claims he became First Elder. It is unclear what the hierarchy of titles and roles is in the sect, but it appears Roger Billing is at the head as Patriarch and David Eyre is First Elder.
• It is unclear whether the sect still operates, disbanded or went underground in 2005.
o A website run by Roger Billing’s son (last updated 2013, former member of the sect), stated there were two locations for the sect. The first has about 120 people and operates privately in Independence, MO. He claims there is another location, 82 miles north of Independence, in Gallatin, MO with an unreported number of people operating in secluded farmland areas. https://web.archive.org/web/20130510043645/http://breatheforoxygen.com:80/rog-billings-cult/
o Other web searches state the group disbanded in 2005 https://www.academickids.com/encyclopedia/index.php/Church_of_Jesus_Christ_in_Zion
o Further confusing things is the sect’s old website address (www.churchofjesuschrist.org) was purchased by the LDS Church in 2019 as part of President Nelson’s efforts to get people to stop referring to the church as “LDS” or “Mormon.” Up until the purchase, the website was still active for the sect.
Curiously, all Wikipedia articles related the sect stopped working after 2015. All articles on KSL about Roger, his polygamous practices, the lawsuit by Jody Eyre trying to gain custody of Ken’s children after the crash, etc., have stopped working recently as well. Articles that used to be on KSL about Roger no longer work. It is very suspicious that the LDS Church would need the sect’s website, pay for it, and then all these articles would become unavailable.
• Web searches also indicate there was some form of consolidation with the sect and the “Church of Scientology Kansas City Mission” back in the 80’s. It appears former members of the LDS church who had become Scientologists may have merged with Ken’s sect in 1984.
http://forum.reachingforthetippingpoint.net/index.php?topic=6466.0
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/575041045/Publicity-follows-Billings-brother.html?pg=all
• In addition to running the church, Roger Billings operates an alternative science and math educational program in Independence, MO named the “International Academy of Science,” an unaccredited school (http://www.science.edu).
• Billings also runs a number of businesses located in the Independence, MO area, including;
o WideBand Corp (high-speed networking)
o Billings Energy Corporation (a hydrogen fuel-cell research company)
o Acellus Labs (a system of educational software)
• Billings is rumored to have 38 wives and more than 70 children. This link on KSL used to discuss it but no longer works. It is suspicious to me that KSL would no longer give access to the article following the LDS Church’s purchase of the sect’s website.
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=79558
Thanks, Lindsay, for all you do to bring to light the history and truth of polygamy, especially from an LDS perspective.
I’m aware that you believe your research has confirmed that Joseph practiced polygamy. Along those lines, if you haven’t heard this, you might find it interesting…
https://denversnuffer.com/2020/09/124-the-foolish-and-the-wise/
Lindsay I am trying to go back and re listen to your podcast about my grandfather and same name sake Warren Longhurst. You mentioned that he married a plural wife after the manifesto in Colonia Dublan, Chihuahua, Mexico. If you can give me the podcast # and supporting documents, I will greatly appreciate it.
Hi Lindsay,
Listening to your messages has helped me connect a lot of dots within my personal studies of God’s true intentions for his family.
These are some of the things that I’ve come to understand and thought I’d share to get your opinion on:
Monogamy – God’s Only “One” Way
God lets people do what they are going to do, so that people can do what they are going to do, no matter who that person is or what office they hold.
Genesis 4:25, no mention of other wife, but only one
Mathew 19:4,5,6 Jesus associates bad behavior with polygamy only
1 Corinthians 7:2, Paul excludes polygamy and specifies monogamy as “the good”
1 Timothy 3:2,12, same
Jacob 2-3, Jacob declares that God associates nothing good with polygamy, only bad. If only bad comes from polygamy, why then, would God ever command men to do it? If Emma felt the same as these Nephite wives, then Jacob’s words should apply to Joseph and Brigham as well, despite the time difference. Hebrews 13:8, 1 Nephi 10:18, 2 Nephi 29:9, Alma 31:17, Moroni 10:19
Jacob 2:30 is the single crutch that LDS contemporaries use to justify polygamy, but the misinterpretation thereof will be explained below:
In-context interpretation:
“if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [God’s way: Jacob 2:27-29 monogamy]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [Man’s way: Jacob 2:23-24 polygamy]”
Out-of-context interpretation:
“if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people [at times – polygamy]; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things [at other times – monogamy]”
The idea that because Jacob does not list Abraham with David and Solomon should give the reader the right to “assume” the role of God and declare that polygamy is His will “at times”, is dangerous. On the contrary, never has it specifically been written in scripture that polygamy “is” God’s will. Only the opposite is true, it is specifically written that it is “not” God’s will. Especially in the Book of Mormon, where polygamy is never condoned, but “only” condemned. Thinking spiritually and logically, why would God ever condone something “at times” that He has clearly only ever condemned?
The idea that God says, “polygamy is an abomination unto me today, but tomorrow it will be a holy practice” is like God saying, “light is light today, but tomorrow light will be dark”.
Take note that it has never been specifically written in the canonized scriptures as a “commandment from God”, to His children, to actually “practice” polygamy until Joseph’s and Brigham’s introduction of it. Who were both men.
Finally, to put things into perspective, one of the substance-less fruits of polygamy is the follow: As a man awakes lying in bed next to his second wife, if he has Christlike love, he will wonder how alone his first wife must feel as she awakes lying in bed next to no one. Adding more wives to the picture will just expand the loneliness even further.
A real man sees no other females, because he has eyes for only one woman.
Please do an episode on Church of Jesus Christ in Zion, in Missouri. Thank you for what you do! https://onezero.medium.com/a-major-online-learning-platform-was-created-by-a-subterranean-religious-cult-whose-leader-has-cec99e7adcaf
Hi Lindsay
I have just finished listening to all of the available episodes of the year of polygamy podcast. It’s been an interesting journey, especially as I am not Mormon (actually I am not religious at all). It was a good history of the Mormon church, polygamy within the church, and the westward migration in the 1800s. I have left a small donation to thank you for your efforts.
My knowledge of Mormons and polygamy was largely Gentile pop-culture knowledge before this podcast. For example, as a child I was told that Mormons used to practice polygamy but they no longer do. Then when I saw things like sister wives on TV, I realized that it was still going on. And when Warren Jeffs was arrested and convicted and all that mess came out in the news, I realized there was also a very sinister side to it.
You’ve done a great job of interviewing people in a non-judgemental way. Your technique is great and very effective for showing that there are always two sides to the story, two ways of looking at things. One example I can think of is whether or not polygamy is criminalized, you would automatically think that if there were strict and harsh penalties that were enforced, polygamy would go away. But one of your interviewees pointed out that criminalizing polygamy makes people hide it, living in the middle of nowhere in isolated communities, and the young girls born into this culture don’t realize they have another choice or they would frequently choose another choice such as monogamy. So criminalizing it actually perpetuates it. That never would’ve occurred to me.
I have my own opinions about polygamy which are not important. I’ve watched a few TV show such as three wives one husband and my five wives. Also a couple episodes of sister wives and a couple documentaries about the FLDS. While the wives don’t seem distressed, there are lots of times when it looks like their life is painful. And I wonder, had they been raised with exposure to more choices, would they have chosen to be a plural wife? An example I can give of this is on my five wives, Polly on more than one occasion says that when she was growing up she always knew she would be a plural wife. That was what was expected of her and that is what she did. And they show the wedding picture with the second wife and Polly is largely pregnant and it just broke my heart. When I see things like that I have to be fair and make a comparison with monogamous marriage. These men with several wives treat each of their wives better than lots of monogamous men treat their only wife. And let’s not kid ourselves, monogamous people get divorced all the time and remarried and it’s just like serial polygamy or something. Pros and cons.
If you are interested in the viewpoint of a non-religious outsider just learning about all the stuff, feel free to contact me.
Diane McCormick
Hi Lindsay,
I appreciate your show and your research you’ve done on church history. I had a history question I hope you can help me with.
Rumor has it that Joseph Smith might have been inspired by a former Scottish colonizer in America who set up a community where everyone shared everyone’s property and everyone could love and be intimate with everyone who lived there. Have you heard of such rumor?
Hi Lindsay!
Do you have transcripts of these podcasts anywhere? If not are you interested in having them transcribed? I would love to volunteer to help with that. I’m not the fastest but I am pretty invested in making this more accessible!
Thank you so much for sharing this! I can’t even handle how insane our beginnings were. Are you still a member of the Church? I don’t know how you still can . Have you ever read lettertomywife.com ? If not you should. So grateful for your work.